Dr. M. Elizabeth Thorpe and Producer Carl Thorpe discuss Juneteenth.
Transcript
DDM [00:03] Hello and welcome to The Priest and the Prof. I am your host, the Rev. Deborah Duguid-May.
MET [00:09] And I’m Dr. M. Elizabeth Thorpe.
DDM [00:11] This podcast is a product of Trinity Episcopal Church in Greece, New York. I’m an Episcopal priest of 26 years, and Elizabeth has been a rhetoric professor since 2010. And so join us as we explore the intersections of faith, community, politics, philosophy, and action.
MET [00:40] Hello listeners and welcome. Today is a very exciting day. We wanted to do a special episode for Juneteenth, but Reverend Deborah is away. So what we did is we brought in a special guest host.
MET [00:55] And I have to tell you, I am very excited. This is Carl Thorpe. And Carl Thorpe is, if you don’t know, kind of the brains behind the operation here. He is Coming from behind the mixer onto the mic.
MET [01:12] If you’ve been listening for a while, you might know that Carl Thorpe is our producer. But what you need to know is he is the guy who thought of this whole project. He does the editing, the recording, the whole thing. He really is the guy who makes the magic happen.
MET [01:26] So I’m so excited to have him with us today on this episode of The Prof and the Producer. Welcome, Carl.
Carl R. Thorpe (CRT) [01:36] Hello
MET [01:37] I know, I’m so excited. Okay, so we’re talking about Juneteenth today. And this is something that’s kind of interesting for Carl and I because Juneteenth, as we will discuss in just a few minutes, originated in Texas. And that’s where Carl and I hail from. So we have kind of a, you know, a special interest in this.
MET [01:58] Anyway, all that is to say, welcome, and we hope you enjoy our special episode today.
CRT [02:05] Okay, so on January 1st, 1863, the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect, ostensibly freeing all African slaves throughout the Confederate States. Union soldiers marched on the plantations throughout the South to read copies of the proclamation and free slaves. However, states that were still under Confederate control did not free their slaves, and it took more than two years for Union soldiers to arrive in Galveston, Texas on June 19th, 1865. General Gordon Granger issued the following decree.
CRT [02:35] The people of Texas are informed that in accordance with the proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and hired laborer. The more than 250,000 enslaved black people in the state were free. By 1867, some schools in Texas began commemorating the day with celebrations.
CRT [03:07] This began the period known as Reconstruction in the South that was also marked by mass migrations to the North. Many newly freed Black people decided to move to the North as slavery had been outlawed nationwide by the 13th Amendment ratified shortly before Juneteenth. This brought the remembrance of America’s second Independence Day with them. Juneteenth would continue to be celebrated among African American families and communities.
CRT [03:28] Opal Lee, a black former teacher from Texas, began working towards recognition of Juneteenth as a federal holiday at the age of 89. She began a series of symbolic walks of 2.5 miles each in major cities around the country, 2.5 miles because it took 2.5 years for the slaves in Texas to be freed. In 2016, she walked from Texas to Washington DC to petition the government to make Juneteenth a holiday. Despite having more than 1.5 million signatures in a petition, she said that that trip was a failure.
CRT [03:56] However, she returned again in 2021 and her efforts were rewarded. On June 17th, Of 2021, President Joe Biden signed the national Juneteenth Independence Day Act into law, establishing June 19th as a federal holiday. Opal Lee was a guest of honor at the signing ceremony, and in 2024, President Biden awarded her the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
MET [04:18] Okay, that’s a fantastic bit of background talking about how Juneteenth made its way into kind of the cultural conscious of where we are. Juneteenth was always a thing in Texas. It didn’t necessarily make its way into American way of life until much later. What I want to think about as we continue this conversation is kind of broader thinking on how Juneteenth and the way we think about kind of the The systematic way we think about how Juneteenth fits into our understanding of who we are.
MET [05:08] So I’m actually going to talk about DEI because I feel like if we’re going to think about how we celebrate Juneteenth, we have to think about broader impacts. So bear with me for a minute while I take us on a little journey. The attack on DEI, which is diversity, equity, and inclusion in state and federal institutions and education, is not just a random policy directive, but it is a response to the kind of progress that led to Juneteenth being a holiday. America has, for the last few decades, been trying, at least superficially, to acknowledge that it is a country made up of many peoples.
MET [05:50] Specifically, our history is a history of people from many backgrounds and cultures. Now I am quick to emphasize the superficial nature of this. We can slap some names on holidays and put some faces on stamps or even dollar bills, but that doesn’t erase a history of racism or sexism. But there have been efforts to at least acknowledge a diverse past.
MET [06:17] This changed as soon as Trump was elected. In his first administration, he made it abundantly clear he was only interested in a white male past. In his second administration, he is doing everything he can to erase the legacy of Juneteenth. As an example, I’m actually going to go back in time a little bit to something that happened that directly addresses the attacks on DEI, so we’re going to go back just a few years, and how these are playing out in the world right now.
MET [06:48] So in 2021, Boise State, the university, suspended all 52 sections of a required course. The course had been running since 2012, and it concerned ethics and diversity and challenged students to inquire into key ethical ideas and values together, giving equal voice to all who are committed to the public good. Individual course sections covered topics like moral problems, moral courage, censorship, the ethics of food, folklore, deviance, and human rights. 1,300 students were enrolled and therefore affected by this decision.
MET [07:33] In an email, President Marlene Trump wrote that we have been made aware of a series of concerns culminating in allegations that a student or students have been humiliated and degraded in class on our campus for their beliefs and values. So according to Inside Higher Ed, One faculty member who quickly deleted his comments wrote on Twitter that he’d been told a student taped a Zoom discussion on white privilege in which apparently a white student was made to feel uncomfortable and sent video to state legislature who are enraged. BSU suspended all of these 200 classes mid-semester as a result. The professor also said that the state legislature and a group called the Idaho Freedom Foundation have been requesting syllabi for this class for years now, looking for something they can use to force the removal of anything related to diversity and inclusion, and at that point they thought they
MET [08:38] had it. The Idaho Freedom Foundation said on its website that UF200, otherwise known as Foundations in Ethics and Diversity, is among four mandatory general education courses that are infused with social justice, a toxic ideology that has captured many facets of life at Boise State. The state legislature’s Joint Finance Appropriations Committee voted to cut $409,000 from Boise State’s budget with members alleging that the university was pursuing an expensive social justice agenda. Okay, this is problematic in so many ways.
MET [09:24] On the one hand, what is the state government, as well as the executive branch, doing interfering with education? I could talk about that tons, because that in and of itself is a huge issue. But more importantly, what exactly is the DEI issue? I think in these circumstances, I always want people to explain their problem.
MET [09:49] Okay, so you are against DEI. What part of it? Explain your objection. What part of DEI are you against?
MET [10:00] Is it the diversity, the equity, or the inclusion? Which of those do you object to? I would like somebody to explain what aspect of DEI is so objectionable that we have made it a public crusade. But if nobody is willing to do that, I think we need to look at what we are doing here.
MET [10:22] The goal is very clear, to eliminate all discussion of anything that smacks of non-white. I see examples of things like the Tulsa Massacre or the GI Bill all the time, and I think those are really bad examples. And what I mean by that is people will say, oh, if you think people should learn about history like the Tulsa Massacre or that black people were left out of the GI Bill, then you think DEI or sometimes CRT is important. And I think that is a crackpot example on both accounts because those are not DEI or CRT.
MET [10:59] Those are just straight-up history. And I have this crazy idea that just because people of color are involved doesn’t mean it isn’t just straight-up history. The Tulsa Massacre happened. That is a verifiable fact.
MET [11:19] It is not giving you a particular perspective on history to tell you that it happened. Same with the GI Bill. It is not any kind of agenda to tell you that black soldiers did not benefit from it. Those are facts, irrespective of any kind of paradigm.
MET [11:38] What would move into an area of DEI education, or CRT if you will, is if you talk about the systemic forces that led to that. And the reason I say this is because the administration doesn’t want you to know, not the theories behind the systemic forces, they do not want you to know the actual facts. That, my friends, is not an educational agenda. That is censorship and propaganda.
CRT [12:11] And it’s important to remember that systemic racism exists in all aspects of life. And you know, while this administration is trying to get rid of DEI, get rid of discussions of race and history, our education system is racist. And it is built that way. For three years, from 2007 to 2010, I taught middle school language arts at a school in Texas.
CRT [12:34] In 2009 to 2010 school year, there were 881 students enrolled. 21.1% of them were African American, 51.5% were Hispanic, 26% were white, and 1.4% were Asian Pacific Islander. 74% of the students at the school were economically disadvantaged. 10.4% had limited English proficiency, and 58.6% were considered at risk.
CRT [12:42] 25.3% of the students spent at least one day in alternative classroom settings due to disciplinary placements, and 22.4% had no permanent address. However, in a school with that type of student body makeup, the teaching staff was made up of 82.8% white teachers, 9% African American, 6.7% Hispanic, and 1.5% Asian Pacific Islander. While I was there, I taught everything from co-taught classes with special education students to pre-AP classes to high-achieving gifted magnet classes. To say that those classes were clearly segregated along racial lines would be an understatement.
CRT [13:39] My pre-AP and magnet classes were overwhelmingly white. My lower level classes were overwhelmingly students of color. Discipline at the school was also clearly biased. All it took was visiting the in-school suspension room to see that it was overwhelmingly black students who lost out on classroom time and were left isolated in cubicles with little more than busy work to keep them occupied.
CRT [14:03] The teachers were in many cases blatantly racist. One of my co-workers told me once that she wasn’t even going to bother with allowing one of her African American students to take a makeup exam that they missed while hospitalized because, quote, those kids don’t care. So why should she? When pressed on who those kids were, it became clear that she blatantly discriminated against students of color in her classroom, interactions, discipline, grading, and parental communication.
CRT [14:30] In defense of the school, that teacher did not remain at the school much longer after that. I frequently heard teachers and administrators complain that only white families participated in events that were held during the normal work day, as evidence that parents of color don’t care about their kids’ education. Of course, forgetting that those parents had to work. In 2010, a bullying incident led to an organization called Texas Appleseed looking at discipline records for the school.
CRT [15:01] They found out that African American students, while making up less than half the student population, were four times as likely to be issued citations requiring court appearances than any other student group, often for minor infractions such as profanity or disrupting classes. Along with the Texas NAACP, Texas Appleseed and other civil rights organizations in Texas filed a federal complaint that resulted in the Office of Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education to begin an investigation into the district. Because of Donald Trump’s attempts to dismantle the U.S. Department of Education, there are no records as to how that investigation concluded.
MET [15:41] You know, it’s easy for us to sit around and say, oh, this is racist, or oh, that’s racist. But in the face of just kind of that overwhelming evidence, and even if it is just Carl’s personal experience, even if it is just that kind of anecdotal story of, oh, this teacher that I knew, that kind of overwhelming this happened, here are the percentages. What do you even do with that? I want to continue what I started above and also expand on what Carl has talked about here.
MET [16:13] And I also want to encourage you, if you have not already, to go back and listen to our episodes about South Africa and prisons and the penal system, because we talk a lot about whiteness and the law and justice, and that feeds pretty directly into what we are discussing here. But I’m going to continue talking about Texas schools in just a slightly different way. I went to Texas A&M for my master’s and my PhD.
MET [16:42] If you don’t know anything about Texas A&M, it’s a really good, really big school. Actually, Carl and I met there. The faculty are not necessarily right wing, though you may find more conservative faculty there than at other schools because of the engineering and business schools, which were both very good, but the student body is decidedly conservative. It is evolving over the years but it has always been a very traditional school.
MET [17:20] So let me give you a little bit of history. Texas A&M was founded in 1876 in Brazos County, Texas, making it the oldest public institution of higher education in the state. It’s not the oldest school, however. The school I went to for my undergraduate degree, Baylor University, is actually older than the state of Texas.
MET [17:41] It is not as old as some of the churches around here, though. So, Carl and I always laugh about that. In 1891, José Ángel Ortiz was the first Hispanic graduate. In fact, the first Aggie touchdown was scored by N.
MET [17:59] Valdez, and I’m so sorry, I don’t know his first name, I just have his initial. N. Valdez from Hidalgo, Mexico, the class of 1897. There was one Chinese student in 1913 and one Japanese football player in 1923.
MET [18:15] In 1925, there was a resolution against allowing women into the school. In 1956, after Brown v. Board, the Texas A&M Student Senate voted 24-7 opposing segregation. However, in a campus-wide election on whether students were in favor or against segregation, Texas A&M students voted to continue segregation.
MET [18:43] In 1962, Texas A&M System Board decided to admit qualified students, regardless of race, to Arlington State College to avoid the threat of lawt suit for admittance by three African American students. And it was in 1963, almost 100 years after its founding, that three black men enrolled in Texas A&M. They enrolled for the first summer session as special students, becoming the first black students to attend Texas A&M. Later that year, the Board of Directors permitted women to enroll on a limited basis.
MET [19:22] In 1965, Texas A&M’s head football coach publicly stated that recruitment of African American football players would create disunity on the team. In 1967, Clarence Dixon Jr., a graduate student, became the first African American to graduate from Texas A&M. In 1968, James L. Courtney and Leon J.
MET [19:46] Green graduated in January, becoming the first African American undergraduate students to graduate from Texas A&M. And in 1969, women were allowed to register at A&M freely. Okay, that’s a lot of history about a school that you probably don’t care about. But here’s where I’m going with this.
MET [20:04] Texas A&M is 50% white. SUNY Brockport, where I work now, is 70% white. The point I am trying to make is that we assume whiteness and masculinity are baked into some places. You say, oh, Texas, yeah, that place is just sexist and racist.
MET [20:28] And history bears that out. But if you stop there, you might miss the fact that you’re sitting square in the middle of a pretty big field of whiteness yourself. And if people aren’t aware of that, they are missing out on a lot of perspectives they may not see because those perspectives have not been introduced. And that’s why something like Juneteenth is so essential.
MET [20:54] And why I am couching this discussion in a little story about my Texas school. Juneteenth is a quintessentially Texan day that has spread, and that is a little weird to people because so many folks think of Texas as this backwoods, backwards place. But the story of Juneteenth hasn’t been told, and that leads to a lot of racist misconceptions about whiteness and where it is manifest. There is this idea that racism only exists in certain parts of the country, But we desperately need education in DEI to remind us that racism, in its many forms, is not relegated to the proverbial ignorant South.
MET [21:40] It is here. With us. In us. This is the difference between teaching the facts and teaching DEI.
MET [21:51] It is very easy to say A&M, ooh, bad. College Station, Texas must be racist. When confronted with the fact that segregation in Monroe County is much worse, it’s a little uncomfortable. We can know the South fought slavery.
MET [22:12] What we need… We can know that the South fought for slavery. What we need to understand is that slavery wasn’t cognate with racism. Racism was the water that flowed beneath the ground of the entire country.
MET [22:33] It fed slavery, but racism infected all parts of the country. There is not a state that remained untouched, and pretending otherwise just reproduces its evils.
CRT [22:46] I mean, we can look at the Episcopal Church and talk about this as well. For those of you that don’t know, the Episcopal Church is considered one of the most progressive churches in America, possibly the world. They are seen as being on the forefront of gender issues, sexual orientation, race, immigration, all those things. But it is important to know and to remember that the Episcopal Church did not question American slavery at the time.
CRT [23:20] The Episcopal Church was the only major denomination that was present in both the North and South that did not split over the question of slavery, as it was seen as a legal and political issue rather than a moral or ethical issue. The 1856 General Convention of the Episcopal Church stated, in refusing to comment on violence in Kansas directly related to slavery, that the church would have, quote, nothing to do with party politics, with sectional disputes, with earthly distinctions, with the wealth, the splendor, and the ambition of the world. In 1861, the presiding bishop, John Henry Hopkins, published in an extended defense of slavery, in which he concluded that even if you are morally opposed to it, slavery is in the Bible, and it’s legal. In 1804, the first African-American Episcopalian priest, the Reverend Absalon Jones, was ordained and allowed to form a Black congregation in Philadelphia, with the condition that he and his congregation would have no voice and no vote at conventions.
CRT [24:30] After the Civil War, the Episcopal Church actively created segregated conventions, dioceses, and churches, especially in the South. The church did not question the construction of legalized segregation in the United States and actively treated Black Episcopalians as second-class Christians. In 2006, the Episcopal Church’s Committee on Anti-Racism stated that it is time for the church community to collectively engage in reckoning with the full impact of racism, historically and in present day. Reconciliation and restorative justice are best achieved when they emerge from an honest examination and shared understanding of inequity and marginalization in church and society.
CRT [25:14] That resolution proposed that the church build on the model of truth and reconciliation in South Africa, adding the third step of justice to ensure that action follows healing dialogue. In 2015, the Episcopal Church launched a commitment to acknowledging the Church’s complicity in slavery and the continued propping up of the systemic racism throughout Reconstruction, the Jim Crow era, and beyond, called Becoming Beloved Community. Beginning with clearly acknowledging the church’s failings in racial justice, examination of the institutions within the church, and working towards a goal of truth-telling and racial reconciliation, Becoming Beloved Community has been a guiding principle in both racial reconciliation, but also a means through which the church has been examining how other groups have been historically discriminated against, such as women, immigrants, indigenous people, and the LGBTQIA plus community.
CRT [26:07] Today, the Episcopal Church’s Office of Racial Reconciliation organizes their ministries around four quadrants of becoming beloved community. Each of these four commitments is necessary, they say, to dismantle and heal white supremacy within us, our churches, our communities, and society at large. The four tenets are truth-telling, which is telling the truth about our church and race, Proclamation of the Dream of the Beloved Community, Formation and Practicing Jesus’ Way of Healing Love, and Engaging in Working for Justice, Repairing the Breaches in Society and Institutions. As such, the Church has embraced Juneteenth and has embraced DEI, Father Joseph Green Jr., the canon evangelist of the Episcopal Diocese of Southern Virginia, has said on many occasions that black Americans are an Exodus folk.
CRT [27:03] He goes on to explain, we identify with the enslaved children of Israel whose cries were heard by God and were freed by God’s mighty hand. Juneteenth speaks to God hearing the cries of enslaved people in America and setting into motion all that went into the freedom of the enslaved people in the United States. The Reverend Miguel Bustos writes that Juneteenth, a day commemorating the emancipation of enslaved African Americans, calls us to remember our history while striving for a future where true freedom and justice prevail. It’s a powerful reminder of the ongoing struggle against systemic racism and the urgent need for equality and reconciliation within our society.
CRT [27:43] He goes on to point out that Juneteenth occurs in the afterglow of Pentecost, where we remember how the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles, equipping them with the ability to speak in diverse tongues. This miraculous event enabled them to communicate across cultural and linguistic barriers, embodying God’s vision for a united yet diverse kingdom. The Spirit’s flame ignited a global movement driven by the core message of love and inclusion, compelling Jesus’ followers to go forth and share the good news with all the nations. Consider how Pentecost and Juneteenth guide us in our mission to build a beloved community.
CRT [28:22] This vision, deeply rooted in justice, peace, and love, challenges us to embrace not only those within our church walls, but those outside them. It encourages us to extend our table, making room for more voices, especially those that have been marginalized or silenced. Embracing others requires more than passive acceptance. It demands active engagement and understanding.
CRT [28:47] It means listening to the stories of those different from us, standing in solidarity with them, and taking concrete actions to address injustices. It involves examining our own biases and systems of power and privilege, and tirelessly working toward a community where everyone can flourish.
MET [29:06] Okay. So, what are we supposed to do with all of this? One, if you are listening, and you’re an Episcopalian, it is time to do some self-reflection. I hate to break it to you, but chances are you are white.
MET [29:24] Like, real white. So, that is of course a generalization, but the Episcopal Church is not exactly a diverse group. If you have never sat down and asked yourself why that is, now is the time. While you’re at it, think about your friend group.
MET [29:45] Is it diverse? And I don’t mean do you work with a black guy or a Mexican woman. Do you have friends, even close friends, from all walks of life? Or do most of your friends look like you?
MET [29:59] If they do, it’s time to have a come to Jesus with yourself about why that is. You are not immune to whiteness. Consider your surroundings. Have you ever gone to an event and been the only white person there?
MET [30:13] Or the only man, or the only woman, or the only Christian? Did it feel awkward? Were you uncomfortable? Well, guess what?
MET [30:24] How do you think a black person feels every time they walk into your church, or into your office, or try to join your friend group? You may not have thought too much about it, but that feeling you get when you’re the only person like you and you’re afraid to stick out, some people live that life every day, all the time. And the fact that you have never thought about that is 100% your privilege. So one thing you can do is to go out of your way to make people feel welcome and like they belong.
MET [30:56] And another thing you can do is invite more people. Educate yourself. There are a million podcasts, books, and shows on these topics. For example, PBS has a great documentary called Juneteenth, Faith and Freedom, that might appeal to listeners that are interested in the connection between Christianity and the history of slavery and emancipation.
MET [31:19] There’s so many resources out there. Just start looking. All of that is personal and individual, but there are larger public things you can do. Support Juneteenth celebrations.
MET [31:32] Go to cultural events. Let your community know that you want and support activities that celebrate diverse voices. Vocally support DEI initiatives. Don’t let the voices that want to erase the lives of our neighbors and community be the only ones that we hear.
MET [31:50] Let the public and public officials know that it is important to you that we have a variety of voices and narratives in our public lives. Because the public is diverse. And this one might be surprising. Support local libraries.
MET [32:06] Libraries aren’t just places where people get books. They are community centers that support a wide variety of people and activities at the heart of many diverse communities. Many children, from all strata of society, find their voice and their identity represented at the library, and sometimes for the first time. It may not seem the obvious thing, but libraries are champions of diversity and inclusion.
MET [32:34] Make sure they are thriving. Thank you for listening to The Priest and the Prophet. find us at our website, https://priestandprof.org. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact us at podcast@priestandprof.org.
MET [32:55] Make sure to subscribe, and if you feel led, please leave a donation at https://priestandprof.org/donate. That will help cover the costs of this podcast and support the ministries of Trinity Episcopal Church. Thank you, and we hope you have enjoyed our time together today.
DDM [33:13] Music by Audionautix.com
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