In this episode, Reverend Deborah and Elizabeth try to work through their feelings about the election and its aftermath. They discuss not just the politics of the last year, but different perspectives on parties, global and local relationships, and the media.
Transcript
Transcription provided by automated service.
[00:03] DDM: Hello and welcome to The Priest and the Prof. I am your host, the Rev. Deborah Duguid-May.
[00:09] MET: And I’m Dr. M. Elizabeth Thorpe
[00:11] DDM: This podcast is a product of Trinity Episcopal Church in Greece, New York. I’m an Episcopal priest of 26 years and Elizabeth has been a rhetoric professor since 2010. And so join us as we explore the intersections of faith, community, politics, philosophy, and action.-
[00:39] MET: So the election has come and gone, and there has been a lot of analyzing and punditry and the blame game about what went down. Republicans are of course elated, and I want to note that I say Republicans and not necessarily conservatives because by my calculation they are not necessarily the same thing anymore. There is a lot of infighting on the left. Institutional Democrats are mad at the left flank and the left flank is furious at the center. Now I, and I think I can say we, are not here to tell you who is right and who
[01:19] MET: is wrong. Honestly, I think that is an infinitely more complicated question than anybody is making it out to be in the think pieces in the media, right? Like this is, this is huge. And honestly, often I would say, oh, maybe go to like BBC or Al Jazeera or any of those places. But I think this is 1 of those where nobody in the foreign press is getting it particularly right. Because I think outsiders usually bring in a really good perspective because they remind us how right-wing all of our politics really are. But in this case,
[01:55] MET: I think the truth is foreign media just doesn’t really understand the nuances and the finer points of American politics. It’s the same reason you wouldn’t go to an American source for real deep analysis on the inner working politics of a different country. That being said, institutional media in the US is only giving you a partial picture too. So it is very difficult to know what’s going on out there. Okay, ultimately all of that doesn’t concern specifically what I wanna talk about today. What I wanna talk to you about is the response to the election. That’s kind
[02:33] MET: of where Reverend Deborah and I want to kind of want to center today. So let me save this as an observation and this is an observation I make as a person who is a professional in political studies. The new administration came in basically on 2 or 3 strains of rhetoric. Racism, and I mean hardcore racism against immigrants, the dehumanization of trans folks, especially kids, and lambasting the Democrats’ record on the economy. Now, I could give you a whole podcast about the third leg of that stool, but for now I want to focus on the first 2
[03:22] MET: There is no way around the fact that the Trump administration rode in on a campaign of bigotry and hate and I’m gonna be very frank. Maybe you are a Trump voter and you say, well, I’m not bigoted or hateful, but what you’re telling me is that bigotry and hatred are not eliminating factors for you. Neither is rape or neither are felonies. Now we could play the same game with the Democrats If you voted for Biden in the last election or Harrison this 1, genocide was not an eliminating factor for you. But there wasn’t a choice, right?
[03:58] MET: Yeah, the Dems are gonna support genocide, but Trump is too and probably in spades. So, you know, choose your warmongering, right? Like at what level? And because all of this is going on in the background, because we have such monumentally immoral choices to make, people are having all kinds of feelings about it. And what I want to say to you today is this. Your feelings are justified. A lot of you are feeling angry or confused or hurt, and that is all a sensible reaction to what is a very wild turn of events. You don’t have to
[04:41] MET: feel guilty for being emotional. You don’t have to feel embarrassed for thinking this is a big deal, and there’s no reason to try to ignore what you’re going through. This election was not like others, and you can see that in just the vitriol of the campaigns, right? This was This was an extension of what has come before. So there were more things that hung in the balance. And if you’re having an emotional response, that’s not inappropriate. That’s a normal response to an abnormal situation. So don’t let people belittle you or diminish you. If people are dismissive
[05:18] MET: of your feelings, that says something about their callousness, not your right to be upset. So I’m going to go into something different in just a second, but I didn’t know Reverend Deborah, did you want to respond to any of that? Absolutely.
[05:31] DDM: I mean, I think so often we’re taught not to take seriously what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling. We’re always told, don’t worry, there’s professionals dealing with this. But these issues, they impact our lives. They impact the lives of those we love. And maybe more significantly, they impact the lives of those we don’t know, those we’re not in relationship with, because those are our blind spots.
[05:55] MET: Absolutely.
[05:56] DDM: And you know, we’re in a very difficult position in the USA, I mean, in so many different ways. And for better or for worse, we function as a leader in the world. So everything that happens in our country is going to have global implications.
[06:14] MET: Absolutely. Okay, so this may seem a little bit tangential, but as I often do, I promise I will bring it back. I want to tell you a little bit about Aristotle for a second.
[06:24] DDM: I love the way you always go off, like way off where we’re not expecting.
[06:26] MET: I promise I can bring it all to a head. You just have to give me a second. You should hear my family laugh at me about the way. They’re like, my child says, you have a train of thought, but it’s just off the tracks. So like this is a common thing for
[06:50] DDM: me.
[06:51] MET: So Aristotle was sort of the first guy to kind of systematize how we make an argument. So the stuff that you learned in fourth grade all the way through freshman comp about how to write persuasively that was Aristotle. And one of the things he wrote about was the notion that there are different kinds of proofs or appeals. So there are artistic and inartistic proofs. And inartistic proofs are the outside proofs you bring to the party, like your evidence. That’s your research you add to the argument. But artistic proofs are the stuff you make on your own.
[07:27] MET: The artistic proofs you may have heard of are appeals to logos, pathos, and ethos. Those are words a lot of people heard in their education going through, but if you didn’t that’s fine. This may seem very far afield from where I started, but I want you to think about this. Aristotle said to make a solid argument you have to have 3 kinds of proofs. You have to in some kind of balanced way appeal to logic and reason which is logic, character which is ethos which is like ethics, and emotion which is pathos. Path is where we
[08:04] MET: get sympathy and empathy. And the reason I point this out now in the middle of this conversation is because too many people get caught up in the idea of being reasonable at all times. And now I am not saying you should be unreasonable. No, you should strive to be reasonable as much as you can. But reason is not the absence of emotion. Aristotle’s description of a good argument requires that you appeal to the whole person, their emotion, their intelligence, and their character. And he asks you to argue from there too. And I say this to segue
[08:46] MET: into something I think we all need to hear sometimes. You don’t have to quash your emotion to partake in public discourse, right? The very first person who said, here’s how to make an argument, said, you argue from the whole person and that includes the emotional core of you.
[09:03] DDM: You know, it’s so interesting as I did have not heard those before because obviously I was in a different system of education and we didn’t, you know, deal with Aristotle. However, it’s just interesting how so often that has been an argument against women participating in discourse.
[09:19] MET: I’ve got a whole thing I write about that in later places.
[09:23] DDM: If you want to talk about that.
[09:24] DDM: Too emotional.
[09:25] MET: Oh my gosh. Seriously, I’ve got a paper I’m presenting on that exact same thing in March.
[09:33] DDM: And I like that because there’s a significance of emotion because I think even if you look at the US elections, there was a lot of emotion on both sides going around. And so much I think of our decision making is actually being rooted, not in facts, but in emotion. You know?
[09:48] MET: Oh my gosh. If you, I can talk about this for hours at a time. I’m not going to right now.
[09:53] DDM: Yeah, sure.
[09:54] MET: I will not subject you to that, but I could definitely talk about it. I do want to, I’m going to give us an example of something that I think is pertinent. So here’s my historical example for the day. Cause of course, like why wouldn’t I have one? I want to talk about Frederick Douglas. He’s one of the most amazing historical figures of the 19th century and his legacy and the work he did is the stuff of legend. We are in the area of Rochester, New York, and you really can’t get away from Frederick Douglass if you’re
[10:22] MET: up here because this is kinda his area that he kinda landed in towards the end of his career, and we are so proud of him up here. He’s buried in this area. This is Frederick Douglass Central. But when he gave his speech, What to the Slave is the Fourth of July, he addressed this idea of civil discourse, even if he didn’t use those words, because Douglass understood something essential about democratic dialogue. And that is, if only 1 party is arguing in good faith, then the whole thing is a wash. Douglass knew that rational argumentation only goes
[11:00] MET: so far. If you have presented over and over again your sound and thorough arguments and the opposition is just refusing to listen and responding with ignorance and bigotry, then what are you supposed to do? Sometimes you just can’t argue hate reasonably. So Douglass said, “The time for such argument is passed. At a time like this scorching irony not convincing argument is needed. Oh had I the ability and could reach the nation’s ear, I would today pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm and stern rebuke.”
[11:43] DDM: I’m guessing that’s Frederick Douglass, not you.
[11:47] MET: Yes. That’s just on my syllabus, right? That’s just how I start out first day of class.
[11:51] MET: No, no, no. That’s Frederick Douglass. He’s one of the greatest orators of time. He was a friend of Susan B. Anthony, and he was one of the greatest leaders of the abolition movement, and he says sometimes you just have to get salty. Am I saying you should yell at anybody in a red hat or with a Harris sign? No, that’s a good way to get hurt. But I am saying there’s no reason for you to take all this lying down. It’s okay for you to be angry. It’s okay for you to be upset. It’s okay for
[12:21] MET: you to be frustrated. And it’s okay to be open about these things. If people get mad because you are holding them accountable for their actions, that is their problem, not yours. Because at this point, emotions are justifiable. It is not wrong to be angry at things because they are morally wrong. The question is not can I be emotional or angry? The question is what do we do with this anger?
[12:49] DDM: For sure.
[12:50] MET: So for now it’s important to feel it and walk through it. The people, okay, the problem with people who are constantly positive is that they don’t process their emotions, right? And you have to do that. And I don’t think that means we have to stop feeling anything. We just have to find a way to make things productive, right? What are we gonna do with this anger? How are we gonna make it work for us in the world. How do we behave as righteously angry people to make the world a more just place?
[13:23] DDM: I have to tell you, I love the use of your word righteously angry because, you know, in Trinity here, we always emphasize how righteousness is about right relationships. So how do we exercise anger in a way that doesn’t burn, burn relationships, burn bridges, you know?
[13:40] MET: And that’s exactly what I was about to say, right? Some of you may be like, Oh, Elizabeth, you’re a Christian. How can you like argue for this sort of thing. But I will remind you, Jesus got angry, right? He got so angry that he took the time to make his own whip.
[13:56] DDM: Little premeditation there. Exactly.
[13:58] MET: And drive out people from the temple and knock over tables along the way, right? It literally, you’re right, it was premeditated. It was intense. He took action. He was righteously indignant. And I don’t think he would begrudge me the same thing. The truth is you may feel like your country has failed you on both sides of the aisle. People feel like their country has failed them. And not just now, and in this instance, I’m gonna guess Reverend Deborah’s probably gonna give us some much needed perspective in a minute about how this did not happen in this
[14:29] MET: single moment. And it’s okay for you to be heart breaking about that. It’s okay to be furious or shattered that your friends or family betrayed you by voting in a particular way. These things don’t seem congruous and I don’t know how to tell you how to handle that. I’m struggling with it too. But know that your anger is not wrong. If anything, it is the right response to a terrible situation. Your heartbreak is warranted and nobody, I mean, nobody has the right to tell you that now is the time to be quiet, be thankful or play
[15:05] MET: nice. So go ahead and flip those tables.
[15:10] DDM: I love you, Elizabeth. Thank you. So although Elizabeth and I share, I’m sure most of the same values. I think we see this election and electoral politics differently and I’ve no doubt that some of that is because I was not raised in this country and so have obviously been shaped by a very different social and political context. Now we all have our own political thoughts and feelings, I have my own personal political thoughts and feelings, but I want to respond today as a parish priest. And as a parish priest I am so acutely aware of how
[15:49] DDM: polarized our society has become, to the extent that we are even struggling to have civil conversations anymore. And I think that’s why Elizabeth and I, when we were first dreaming this podcast into being, decided to use conversation as the basis on which these podcasts would happen. Because We’re losing leaders who can model for us healthy, creative conversations. And so we’re losing, even at a local community level, even in our own families, the capacity to really listen or hear one another. And I think when we get into these places, it’s so much easier in times like this
[16:38] DDM: to label each other, to claim the higher moral ground, and then simply to dismiss the other. And I think we can see how each side, even in our own electoral politics, views their own group as all good and the others as all evil or morally lacking. But the reality is things are seldom ever this black and white. And if we are always the ones who in our mind are morally right and our neighbors or those on the other side are always morally wrong, maybe as scripture says, we’re not seeing the log in our own eye. So
[17:15] DDM: I think for myself, I’m not a historian like Elizabeth is, but I do know a little bit about history, especially growing up in the South and in what used to be called the Third World, which is really the majority world. We’ve often had to really watch what happens in America because when America sneezes, as they say, the entire country has the flu. So we’ve watched and we’ve experienced some of America, but this country was founded on genocide. And we see how even today we continue as a nation to fund and support genocide. This country was founded
[17:54] DDM: on slavery and we see how racism and the desire for cheap labor and cheap products continues to shape the USA. This country was founded as many others, most others on patriarchy, the rule of men, and we see how misogyny continues to shape every aspect of our society. And so these three things in some ways continue uninterrupted, no matter who is in power, in a very deep structural way to play out in USA policies, irrespective. Now, I believe as a parish priest, as people of faith, we have to speak out against these things no matter which government
[18:37] DDM: is in power. As people of faith, I think we are called by the gospel of Jesus to stand firm around certain values. All people are created by God, equally loved, equally sacred. Human rights are therefore God-given and our duty to work for. The poor, the most vulnerable, that is where Scripture calls us to primarily see the face of God and to respond to those groups of people as we would to guard God’s self. So immigrants, refugees, ironically are singled out repeatedly in scripture for us to protect, uphold the rights of, and offer hospitality in our communities
[19:28] DDM: too. So these are for me not political values, they are biblical values that when, sorry, yeah.
[19:36] MET: Can I interrupt really quickly? This reminds me of our first episode when we were talking about what we like find in our faith and we were talking about Like I look for an ideology and we were talking about what that ideology means. And this is what exactly what I was talking about.
[19:53] DDM: You’re right, Elizabeth. You’re right.
[19:54] MET: This harkens back to one of the first things we talked about. Okay. Sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
[19:59] DDM: No, Elizabeth’s got the better memory than I have. I’d forgotten that one. You’re right.
[20:03] MET: That’s exactly what we were talking about.
[20:04] DDM: And so these biblical values, when they are being violated, the church cannot be silent. And so we are called not just to speak, but to stand with these communities, no matter the cost to ourselves. And I think we are called by scripture to use any power or privilege we may have to work for the full rights and inclusions, inclusion of these groups of people that are marginalized or more vulnerable. So for me this is what hasn’t changed. Our mandate by Jesus has not changed. This is the work of the church, the calling of the church.
[20:45] DDM: I think the problem for me is when we as the church start to do these things selectively. So for instance, we stand for gender rights, but then we say nothing when Palestinian women are being slaughtered. We stand for the poor, but we say nothing when our country bombs and decimates other countries, leaving nothing but famine and hunger behind. You know, there’s one thing I learned in South Africa, it’s that if we only stand up for human rights when those rights are our own, we’re not really standing up for human rights, but really we’re standing up for
[21:22] DDM: our own self-interest. So as the church, we always have to self-reflect on how are we holding governments equally accountable, whether it is the government we voted for or the government that we didn’t. And I think for myself, you know, I’ve watched how the church has largely been silent on drone warfare, which is really nothing but targeted assassinations in other countries in violation of international human rights. I’ve watched how the church has often been silent around some of those movements internationally of violence against black and brown bodies, and yet we are then enraged by the racist speech,
[22:09] DDM: and rightly so, of some parts of the right-wing movement here in the USA. So we have to ask ourselves where is the consistency? The Church must stand firm against all forms of war, racism, sexism, ecological destruction, the oppression of the poor or immigrants, no matter where these policies or statements come from. And the church cannot become the theological mouthpiece of either the Republican or the Democratic party. And that means we have to stand against Christian nationalism, which is a contemporary heresy. But again, we need to self-examine where we ourselves are upholding an unhealthy relationship with religion
[22:58] DDM: and patriotism. So, you know, to people of faith, I would agree that there’s nothing wrong with constructive anger. But we need to say, is our anger consistent? And can we let our anger first lead us to self-reflection and awareness of where we have contributed to these sins or been silent in the past. And I think the other thing is that we need to be cautious that our anger is always directed towards policies, not people. Because our neighbors are not our enemies. But racism, sexism, militarism, xenophobia, oppression, these are the enemy.
[23:39] MET: So I actually really appreciate what you said about policies there, Reverend Deborah. I think you’re 100% right that the focus of our energy, regardless of our political paradigm, should be on policy. I agree that if we get caught up in the trap of conservatives believe this, so that’s what I believe, or liberals believe this, so I do too. We are setting ourselves up for disaster really quickly because like you, I think both sides have some pretty problematic positions. So the goal has to be not to align with a side, right? Not left or right, but
[24:18] MET: to consider the policy in question. Now, you might say, but didn’t you just talk about how angry you are about the campaigns? Is that policy? Well, but yeah, they are. In a campaign, the administration previews what their policies will be like.
[24:36] DDM: And I think in some ways the election was very poor this year in doing that on both sides. Yeah, yeah.
[24:41] MET: Absolutely. We are concerned about policy here. And the promised policies of the new administration is going to marginalize and hurt and I mean physically, emotionally, and financially hurt some people. So if you’re gonna make it about policy then the policies need to actually be good ones And that’s what I’m getting at. I’m not just angry that the guy who won is a bad dude. I think most people who are in charge are bad dudes.
[25:12] DDM: Yeah, we agree on that one.
[25:14] MET: I’ve been studying politics for 20 years. Like I’m not impressed with any of these people. I’m angry at policy.
[25:20] DDM: Absolutely, absolutely. And like you, you know, I agree that our current political leadership across the board is not serving any of our people anymore, other than the most wealthy. You know, our political system is just no longer working and something new is needed and I think people sense that. But how we get there? I have no idea. But something new has to be birthed from the ground up And for that to happen, we as local communities need to be speaking to one another. We need to be caring for one another. We need to really know and
[25:56] DDM: be there for our neighbors, whoever our neighbors are. Because I know from working in local communities, there is a lot of goodness out there in our people. People care, people want to make a difference and for myself that is where I will choose to place my hope and my energy. So I guess in wrapping up our episode for today, the question is, is where do you find hope? With whom do you find hope and strength? And as always, if you are looking for a faith community that doesn’t have all the answers but gives you space to
[26:35] DDM: ask the questions and feel what you are feeling, Trinity is always here as a place where you can belong and be loved. And if you are in need of a priest, Just remember that we are here for you.
[26:53] MET: Thank you for listening to The Priest and the Prof. Find us at our website Priestandprof.org. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact us at podcast at priestandprof.org, make sure to subscribe, and if you feel led, please leave a donation at priestandprof.org slash donate. That will help cover the costs of this podcast and support the ministries of Trinity Episcopal Church. Thank you, and we hope you have enjoyed our time together today.
[27:23] DDM: Music by AudioNautix.com
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