In this first of a two part episode, Rev. Deborah Duguid-May interviews Brother Jacob, a transgender Anglican Benedictine monk, about his winding spiritual journey to monastic life and his experience at Holy Cross Monastery.
The interview was recorded in September of 2025. The two parts of this interview are the last content with Rev. Deborah that will be released on this podcast.
The interview is presented with minimal editing to retain the flow of the conversation.
Transcript
This transcript generated by an automated process.
DDM [00:03]: Hello and welcome to The Priest and the Prof. I am your host, the Rev. Deborah Duguid-May.
MET [00:09]: And I’m Dr. M. Elizabeth Thorpe.
DDM [00:11]: This podcast is a product of Trinity Episcopal Church in Greece, New York. I’m an Episcopal priest of 26 years, and Elizabeth has been a rhetoric professor since 2010. And so join us as we explore the intersections of faith, community, politics, philosophy, and action.
CRT [00:38]: This is the first part of a two part interview with Brother Jacob at The Holy Cross Monestary in the Hudson Valley, New York. The interview was recorded in September of 2025. The two parts of this interview are the last content with Rev. Deborah that will be released on this podcast. The interview is presented with minimal editing to retain the flow of the conversation.
DDM [01:01]: Hello. So today we are going to be having a conversation with Brother Jacob. He is a monk at the Holy Cross Monastery, which is an Anglican Benedictine religious community in the Hudson Valley of New York. So for those of you that may not be aware, in the Anglican and Episcopal Church, we also have religious communities like many other faith organizations.
DDM [01:27]: And so I am so excited that you all are going to have the opportunity of meeting Jacob and hearing from him today. Brother Jacob, and I remember that I met you first at a community meeting where ironically you and I in the break ended up bonding over food and discussions around food, because for those of you who may not know, Brother Jacob and I are both foodies.
BRJ [01:56]: Yes. Yeah, it was, it was so exciting to meet you. I was thrilled by the idea that your spirituality influences your food choices and the way you nurture your land and your animals, and I’ve, I’ve really been loving studying the theology of food since then
DDM [02:15]: So I want to begin this, um, conversation today with you, Jacob, around what called you, particularly as a young person, to religious life. You know, um, for many of us, we think of religious communities as being people who are older, and it seems unusual for a young person these days to enter into monastic community.
DDM [02:39]: Or is that just the appearance of how it seems to us on the outside?
BRJ [02:44]: Right. Well, no. Well, first, thank you for calling me young. I am 45, so I’m starting to experience aging, but, um, i- in this community, ages range from 26 to 94, so here I am among the young.
DDM [03:00]: Yeah
BRJ [03:01]: And, um, I think the state of the world today has people reassessing their lives and priorities, which means that more and more young people are considering and entering religious communities.
BRJ [03:14]: And here, there’s at least six guys here that are, like, definitely younger than me, and a, a couple right around my age, too. So,
DDM [03:20]: Fascinating, huh? Yeah. Yeah.
BRJ [03:24]: as for what drew me here, the, of course, the obtuse answer is God, right?
DDM [03:30]: Right
BRJ [03:31]: But, um, I’ll give you a, a brief version of my spiritual autobiography. Um, I was always drawn to monastic life, but I grew up in the Church of Christ, a very conservative evangelical church, part of the Holiness Movement, right?
BRJ [03:48]: Like, um, uh, I remember Elizabeth talking about, um, growing up in the Southern Baptist Church. It’s very similar to that. We– I think we thought of them as kind of liberal.
DDM [03:59]: Oh my word.
BRJ [04:01]: So yeah. So monasticism was not part of that tradition.
BRJ [04:05]: and watching The Sound of Music was, like, my first exposure to the religious life. And then in high school, I was fascinated by the book Lost Horizon by James Hilton. It’s set in a lamassery, a monastery in the Himalayas. Uh, but again, you know, mon- monasticism just seemed so set apart.
BRJ [04:26]: It was totally inaccessible. Um, and then left the church entirely when I left my parents’ house at 18. I called myself an atheist. Um, then I was exposed to Zen Buddhism when I was 25 or 26, and it totally changed my life
BRJ [04:46]: Mindfulness and meditation, uh, helped me experience an inner peace and stillness for the first time.
BRJ [04:55]: And so I, I was learning about Thich Nhat Hanh and, and Buddhist monks and, you know, I was like, Oh, what’s, what’s that over there? Maybe I could do that, right? Um, but after exploring some Buddhist sanghas, it just didn’t feel like a good fit for me. I knew that Buddhism held a lot of lessons for me and a lot of wisdom that I could learn from, but it wasn’t really my spiritual home.
DDM [05:20]: Interesting. Interesting.
BRJ [05:22]: about that same time, I was introduced to the idea that many of the major world religions are all worshiping the same God, just talking about it differently, doing it differently, and that always made a lot of sense to me, seeing the similarities and the differences between Eastern and Western spiritualities, right?
BRJ [05:43]: And again, around that same time, this was a very ri-rich period of my life, apparently, um, my sister joined the Orthodox Christian Church, and that completely changed her life.
DDM [05:56]: Wow.
BRJ [05:56]: And I looked at my sister and the changes she was making, and I thought, I want what she’s having. Right? And so I started exploring the Orthodox tradition and this beautiful and rich tradition of theology.
BRJ [06:11]: It, it really draws me in. Um, and because of my strong Christian upbringing, I felt more at home there, right, than I did with Buddhism.
BRJ [06:22]: I, I tried the Orthodox Christian Church for a while, but it– that didn’t really work out because they don’t tend to embrace members of the LGBTQ plus community of which I am a part, so, you know,
DDM [06:36]: Right. Right.
BRJ [06:37]: had to keep moving.
BRJ [06:38]: Um, and then the Episcopal Church was the next obvious stop because, you know, there is the dedication to tradition and the embrace of queer folks
DDM [06:48]: Isn’t it lovely the capacity of the Episcopal Church to hold both of those together? That rootedness but also the open expansiveness, you know?
BRJ [06:58]: Yeah, there really is, um, uh, there’s so many middle ways to be found in the Episcopal Church.
DDM [07:05]: Absolutely. Absolutely.
BRJ [07:07]: Yeah. But by the time I joined the Episcopal Church, I had already married.
BRJ [07:12]: when I found out about Anglican monasticism, I had made a commitment that prevented me from exploring a monastic vocation
DDM [07:21]: The ironies of life, huh?
BRJ [07:23]: Right.
BRJ [07:24]: Yeah. And then, um, 2020 hit, right? And totally turned my world upside down. Um, I know that didn’t– the pandemic didn’t affect everyone the same, but for me, by the summer of 2021, I was completely stripped. M- like I had, I had nothing. My sense of security at home and my s- and family and career were just completely shattered.
BRJ [07:51]: then after my marriage fell apart, the only thing I had left was church and the church community
DDM [07:59]: So,
BRJ [08:01]: So I’m sitting there at rock bottom, and I, I spent some time looking where I was and what got me there and where I wanted to go, and it just, um, just didn’t take long at all for me to set my eyes on the monastery.
BRJ [08:17]: Um, of course, I tried talking myself out of it, right? Because like you said, who joins a monastery anymore?
BRJ [08:23]: Right? Um, I was looking at compromises and religious intentional communities and, you know, all sorts of things. But I just, I just knew in my bones that I needed to become a monk. And I know this also doesn’t work the same for everyone, but, uh, you know, some monks and nuns really struggle with their vocation and making the commitment.
BRJ [08:47]: But this feeling of surety I had was familiar to me. Um, I already knew well what it meant to know something deeply about myself
DDM [09:01]: Can I just ask you quickly, so Brother Jacob being m- previously married is not an impediment to entering a monastic community?
BRJ [09:11]: No. Oh, from be–
DDM [09:13]: Interesting.
BRJ [09:14]: can’t be married while you’re…
DDM [09:16]: thank you.
BRJ [09:18]: Right, right. But, um
DDM [09:20]: just wanted that little digression, you know?
DDM [09:22]: Because I think sometimes people may feel if they have been married that, um, you know, that that may in some ways prohibit them from exploring religious life.
BRJ [09:34]: Oh God, let me tell you, there are so many, so many different tasks that we carry with us, right?
BRJ [09:43]: And I mean, I, I’ve even heard of people with kids joining monasteries. I don’t know about the details of that, like if they have to be 18 before you enter or, you know, some other arrangements or I, I… You know, that if, if you have kids and you’re interested in joining a monastery, reach out to them and talk to the vocations director because, um, you never know until you ask
DDM [10:08]: that’s amazing. sorry to have interrupted.
BRJ [10:10]: No, it’s okay. Oh,
BRJ [10:11]: okay.
DDM [10:12]: so knowing something deeply about myself, right? W- um, when I was 23, I looked in the mirror one day and I saw a man. It was– I, I– it doesn’t sound on the surface like that significant, except that I was assigned female at birth. I was raised a girl, and at that time, I identified strongly as a lesbian.
BRJ [10:40]: So given my religious upbringing, I had struggled a lot with my sexuality, right? And
BRJ [10:47]: emerging from that struggle, I knew deeply that I had zero desire to be in a relationship with a man and an innate attraction to women.
BRJ [10:58]: So that day that I saw a man in the mirror, this light bulb moment for me, it started another journey, which would eventually lead to a deep knowledge of my gender.
BRJ [11:10]: And so the, that moment in the mirror was 2003 in Kansas.
DDM [11:17]: my gosh.
BRJ [11:19]: I–
DDM [11:19]: It was a tough time.
BRJ [11:20]: it was a tough time. I had never even heard the word transgender, right? Like, I didn’t know what this image in the mirror meant.
BRJ [11:28]: But trans folks are really good at finding each other.
BRJ [11:33]: The community was small and dispersed, but very resilient. And side note, it was, it was my trans siblings that taught me what community really is and how beautiful and supportive and messy community can be, right?
BRJ [11:53]: How important it is to forgive each other and stick together, especially when it’s hard and we’re angry with each other, because sometimes community is all we’ve got,
DDM [12:05]: Yeah. I remember that was my experience in South Africa as well with the LGBTIQ community, you know, is when you’re a m- a marginal community, um, yeah, you hold together. I mean, you know, you are each other’s entire world and support system.
BRJ [12:22]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was that experience of, of community that told me when I was at rock bottom that I needed to find a religious community.
BRJ [12:33]: Yeah. So, um, living into my trans identity was like the missing puzzle piece, right? Like it, it made the rest of my life make sense.
BRJ [12:45]: And sometimes people ask me how I decided to transition,
BRJ [12:50]: but it never felt like a decision to me. Uh, right? Like I, I knew it was going to be hard. I knew my family wouldn’t understand. I, I, I’d heard more real-life horror stories than I care to recall. But I knew that I wanted to live an authentic life led by my integrity and not fear, and medical transition was obviously the way to make that happen
BRJ [13:21]: So that’s how did I decide to be a monk?
BRJ [13:24]: It never felt like a decision, right? Like it’s, it was another missing puzzle piece that just made the rest of my life make sense.
BRJ [13:31]: But, uh, um, in becoming a monk, like even with that surety, when you re- when you explore a religious vocation, you gotta, you gotta hold it lightly.
DDM [13:43]: Um, because entering religious life is a, a mutual decision for both the community and the individual, right?
BRJ [13:52]: So I was called to monastic life. I knew that, and I knew that God led me to Holy Cross Monastery, period. That was very clear to me, and I had to hold it all lightly. I, I still have to hold it all lightly because maybe this is just another stop on my journey, not the final destination,
DDM [14:14]: It’s hard to do that when you’re so sure of something in your life to still hold it lightly, yeah?
BRJ [14:18]: sure.
BRJ [14:19]: Yeah. And, and I mean, I, I have every intention of making life vows in a couple years, but anything could happen between now and then. It’s not just my decision. So even if the community and I agree that I have a call to the monastic way of life in the Order of the Holy Cross, there’s still a chance something else entirely will emerge between now and then,
BRJ [14:43]: right?
BRJ [14:44]: So for, for now at least, both I and the community agree that I am where I’m supposed to be. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be here.
DDM [14:52]: That’s amazing. That’s incredible. Um, can I just ask you as well, uh, Brother Jacob, like how did the community responder respond to you being transgender? Like was, was that an issue for the community? Or was it just part of that kind of mutual discernment?
BRJ [15:12]: The communi– So from what I underst– not having been here before I got here,
DDM [15:16]: Right, right, right
BRJ [15:19]: from what I understand, the community was working on And talking about being open to trans men entering for at least a decade before I got here
DDM [15:34]: That’s incredible, huh? I mean, when you think about where civil society is and the fact that 10 years ago already there was discussion and, and sort of discernment around this. That’s, you know, we don’t think of religious and monastic communities as always being that prophetic in some ways and, and ahead of the curve, you know?
BRJ [15:58]: Right. Well, uh, I mean, it’s, it’s ironic because, um, m- m- change happens so slowly in monasteries in general. And, um, like you said, we’re houses of mystics and prophets. That, that’s what we’re here for, right? Like we’re, we are here to shake things up. And, and we talk about it for a decade before we do anything, right?
DDM [16:30]: I really
BRJ [16:31]: not entirely true. Some– There were some trans guys that were exploring their vocation before I got here. It just didn’t work out for them. Like, just like it doesn’t work out for every cis guy, you know?
DDM [16:41]: Absolutely. So, so Brother Jacob, I’m very interested in sexuality and monastic life, you know, because for many, the vows of celibacy seem so strange in a society where sexuality seems to be everywhere, all around us in very explicit ways. Um, and, and I, and I guess what’s making me ask you this question is because I studied at a Roman Catholic seminary in South Africa, and I had a friend who was like a brother to me, and he was entering monastic life, and he was in his mid-20s.
DDM [17:14]: And, you know, as young people, we talk about everything, right? And I remember saying to him, But how do you not have sex? You know? And I remember him saying to me, You know, Debs, it’s freed me so much in my relationships with women, because he said prior to entering the monastic community, every woman that he kind of befriended, at somewhere at the back of his mind, there was always that thought of, This may end up being a sexual relationship.
DDM [17:44]: But he said once that option was literally taken off the table, he found that he was able to enter into very deep, intimate relationships with women in a way that he hadn’t been in the past, and that he actually found that he was enabled to, in a way, see them as full human beings in relationship rather than as possible potential sexual partners.
DDM [18:10]: You know? And so sometimes I, I wonder, you know, about, you know, the fact that we live in such an explicit, um, sexualized, um, time in our world. Is this maybe in some ways impoverishing our capacity for intimacy? You know, I mean, I listen to research, and they say the irony is that young people are having less sex than ever before of any previous generation.
DDM [18:37]: You know, and so I start to wonder, you know, maybe sex currently is not bringing us the intimacy that we’re actually longing for.
BRJ [18:45]: Yeah. I, I think you’re so right. It, um It is really interesting how celibacy can be freeing. And I, I mean, I, I know it may not sound right, um, but, you know, maybe young people are, are catching onto this. It, it is just one of the many paradoxes of, of religious life.
DDM [19:07]: But just because
BRJ [19:08]: but just because something can’t be easily explained doesn’t make it not true, right?
BRJ [19:14]: Um, and, and your friend speaks to a freedom from the pressure and expectation of sex and the way that that freedom allows us to honor others and ourselves more fully, right?
BRJ [19:28]: Um, a couple weeks ago, a few of us attended a, a, a weekend formation retreat where we discussed this, uh, right? Like, how can we foster intimacy in the context of celibate lives?
DDM [19:42]: I l- I love the fact that you guys have these discussions and, you know, are exploring these issues, you know? ‘Cause I think it’s a very different model than repressed sexuality or trying to cut off a part of ourselves, you know? I just excite- it’s exciting that you guys actually verbalize and explore these issues.
BRJ [20:01]: Oh, yeah. We, we have to. W- w- the– we talk about the hard stuff all the time, right? Like, uh, yeah. ‘Cause, yeah, ’cause we can’t struggle by ourselves. Um, so this, this, um, this weekend was led by Sister Lynn Levo, a brilliant woman, a sister of St. Joseph, who, um, is a, a psychologist, and she talked about intimacy. Um, uh, she said when we hear the word intimacy, we, we immediately think about genital sex, right?
BRJ [20:32]: Like, we know this. But, uh, but these– intimacy and genital sex are not the same, right? Like, we can have intimate relationships while keeping our hands to ourselves, right?
DDM [20:43]: Intimate relationships while keeping our hands to ourselves.
BRJ [20:44]: And we can have genital sex with zero intimacy, right?
BRJ [20:48]: Um, and the word intimate, actually, it comes from the Latin, which means to reveal what is innermost
DDM [20:57]: Oh, that’s beautiful
BRJ [20:59]: Right?
BRJ [21:00]: So in monastic life, we spend time in prayer and meditation to build intimacy with oneself and intimacy with God and intimacy with the community.
BRJ [21:15]: And, um, God, of course, already knows what is innermost in all of us, right? So, so being intimate with God is– it’s not about informing God,
DDM [21:27]: But about presenting to God what is innermost
BRJ [21:27]: in us that we may see ourselves in a divine and loving mirror,
DDM [21:33]: That’s
BRJ [21:34]: right? So we take the things that we find in ourselves that, that are ugly, and we show them to God.
BRJ [21:43]: God might say, Oh, that’s not ugly. That’s how I made you.
DDM [21:47]: you. You’re the
BRJ [21:48]: Look, you’re not the only one out there like this, and, and anyway, if I’d made you all the same, you’d all be so boring. Right? Or, or God might say, Oh yeah, that is ugly, but that’s not you.
BRJ [22:01]: That’s darkness.
BRJ [22:02]: You know, your neighbor said the same thing to me the other day. I’m gonna send them your way. They’ll help brush you off and walk you into the light. That’ll feel better.
DDM [22:10]: Oh
BRJ [22:12]: Right? And then we take the things that we like about ourselves, and we say, Hey, God, check out what I learned about myself, right?
BRJ [22:23]: And God goes, Oh, good,
BRJ [22:25]: you.
BRJ [22:26]: Now take that gift over here and tell this other person, ’cause you two are gonna do cool things together.
DDM [22:31]:
BRJ [22:31]: Right? So, like, by becoming, um, more intimate with ourselves and with God, by giving our bodies and our lives to God, we foster a different kind of intimacy.
BRJ [22:46]: We come to know ourselves better and God better, and, and the, you know, these things enable us to connect with each other better, m-more fully and authentically.
BRJ [22:55]: And, you know, anybody can do this. You don’t have to be a monk or celibate to foster that kind of intimate relationship with God, right?
BRJ [23:03]: Just that, like, being celibate allows us to, to take that energy that we might give to a sexual partner and instead give that to God,
BRJ [23:12]: right?
BRJ [23:13]: But God’s relationship with us is not exclusive.
DDM [23:17]: Oh, I love that. I love that, yeah. You know, another question is that people sometimes see moving into a monastic community almost as a, a retreat or an escape from the world, and I’m just interested to explore, do you see it that way, or do you find that maybe you are moving, like you were explaining with intimacy, maybe more deeply and more authentically into the world?
DDM [23:42]: You know, um, I’m thinking, you know, also about the idea that sometimes just because we are in the world doesn’t mean we’re actually present to the world, you know? I mean, I can be in a, in a relationship and yet not present to that person at all, you know? So I’m just interested your thoughts around some of that.
BRJ [24:00]: Yeah. I, I think it’s a, that’s a common idea, maybe misconception. Um, uh, so an- another thing that Sister Lynn talked about was the
BRJ [24:05]: distinction between solitude and isolation, ’cause from the outside they look similar, right? Um, but they’re, they’re really quite different. Isolation is cutting oneself off from others and one’s surroundings, right? You’re, you’re all alone, you’re cut off.
BRJ [24:23]: But in solitude, we bring our relationships with us.
DDM [24:29]: Um,
BRJ [24:29]: And, um, our order is, is blessed to have a house in Hermanus, South A- South Africa, um, St. Benedict’s Priory. They’re actually about to become St. Benedict’s Monastery and move to Plettenberg Bay, which is a little bit closer to, to Durban, which is exciting.
DDM [24:46]: But that’s such a beautiful area. Sorry.
BRJ [24:49]: Yes, I’ve heard. Yeah, I can’t
DDM [24:51]: area.
BRJ [24:52]: So one of the things, uh, that we on this side of the Atlantic have learned from our brothers there is the philosophy of ubuntu. I am because we are,
DDM [25:04]: Yes, yes
BRJ [25:06]: Um, and in Western cultures, there’s a big emphasis on individuality and self-sufficiency, but ubuntu is basically the other end of that spectrum, right?
BRJ [25:18]: An emphasis on our interconnectedness and, and community with compassion, right? Like, um… And it’s similar to the emphasis on, on interconnectedness and interdependency in the Buddhist tradition represented by the, the endless knot.
BRJ [25:38]: And Jesus said, uh, too, in, in his prayer to God that, uh, that they all may be one as you and I are one.
BRJ [25:48]: I and them and you and me, that they may become completely one, right? We’re all connected. Paul said in Galatians, There’s neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you all are one.
BRJ [26:03]: So all things, Deborah, me, the church, immigrants, people who are imprisoned or impoverished or differently abled, Mother Earth, our food, even, uh, the, the dinosaurs and the spotted lanternflies, and genocides and authoritarian leaders and their supporters, we are all interconnected and interdependent. It, it might be a difficult idea to hear for the first time, but it’s true. We are all part of the same ecosystem. Nothing functions by itself,
DDM [26:46]: Yeah, you’re so right. And I, when I listen to some of those things, I think about how we try to cut them off from ourselves, you know, because we hate them or, you know, um, and again, that’s that isolation maybe versus solitude. Yeah.
BRJ [27:01]: And, and we know from studies that isolation leads to all sorts of mental health and, and physical health crises and, and deteriorations,
DDM [27:10]: fragmenting.
BRJ [27:11]: so in solitude, ideally we pe- we become more acutely aware of our interdependence and how, how our every action ripples out to affect all of us, right?
BRJ [27:24]: And here at Holy Cross Monastery, we have a guest house ministry with people of any number of religious backgrounds coming and going all the time. So the world comes to us. We’re not cut off at all,
BRJ [27:37]: right? And to facilitate our ministries, we have to be mindful of and intimate with, there’s our word again, our interconnectedness.
BRJ [27:49]: So when people with whatever background they have come to us and ask for spiritual direction, we can help them in, in whatever they’re grappling with, right? Like, we, we couldn’t do that if we didn’t stay connected
DDM [28:04]: Yeah, I’m thinking so much about what you’re sharing here now, you know, and how it also relates even to transgender and sexuality, um, and bodies. You know, it’s the whole thing of if we cut off parts of ourselves, that’s that isolation, the fragmentation. So what does it mean to, to rather enable and see that interconnectedness of all parts, even the parts that we struggle with or we don’t like or we’re grappling with, you know?
DDM [28:33]: Yeah.
BRJ [28:34]: um, it’s a, it’s a deeper real- uh, well, so And it’s, it’s not just solitude we find here, right? Like, you can find solitude in any number of places.
BRJ [28:48]: But it’s– this is church. Our, our, our brother Randy said on Sunday, In a house of God, we find liberation from our illusions.
BRJ [28:59]: We can– we come here to, to shed our programming that tells us earn acceptance and find safety, be better, do more, find peace, be worthy,
BRJ [29:11]: God’s house, like you said, we a- awaken to the present moment. It’s not an alternate reality we’re living in, but a deeper reality
BRJ [29:22]: A-and, uh, I can’t pretend like we don’t enjoy a certain buffer between the monastery and the rest of the world, right? Like, we are shielded in a way that, that people who have not made the extraordinary decision to join a monastery are not shielded. But
BRJ [29:44]: That buffer between us and the world is nothing but love. That’s it.
BRJ [29:49]: Love is what softens the blows of this world.
BRJ [29:52]: And church, any church, not just a monastery, any church, I hope- hopefully, if we’re doing it right, is a place where people go to love more freely, right?
BRJ [30:05]: Because Jesus said, I give you one commandment, just one.
BRJ [30:09]: Love one another. Paul said, The whole law is summed up in a single commandment, you shall love your neighbor.
BRJ [30:17]: Our, our founder said, Love must act as light must shine and fire must burn. Love is literally all Jesus asked us to do,
BRJ [30:30]: So if church isn’t a place where you can love more freely, um, I would encourage you to explore that idea and take it to God, our loving and divine mirror, right?
BRJ [30:44]: Because lo- love is why I go to church. It’s why I moved into church, you know?
DDM [30:50]: And that’s what’s so dangerous, I think, in so many parts of the Christian church, but we could say this about many of the other faith traditions as well, is when they’re hijacked to become weaponized or, you know, to support things that really are not about love, you know? Yeah.
DDM [31:07]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BRJ [31:10]: So if, if, if there is anyone out there who finds it difficult to accept that, uh, that monastic living is anything but a retreat, I, I refuse to apologize for retreating into love
DDM [31:27]: I really love that phrase, retreating into love. That’s beautiful.
CRT [31:33]: Join us next time for the conclusion of this interview.
MET [31:39]: Thank you for listening to the Priest and the Prof. Find us at our website, priestandprof.org. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact us at podcast at priestandprof.org. Make sure to subscribe, and if you feel led, please leave a donation at priestandprof.org slash donate. That will help cover the costs of this podcast and support the ministries of Trinity Episcopal Church.
MET [32:04]: Thank you, and we hope you have enjoyed our time together today.
DDM [32:08]: Music by audionautix.
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